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Old January 4th, 2006, 03:37 AM   #1
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Question DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Do people have any thoughts on optimal dose and application strategy for external use? For example, what dose do the unfortunately-marketed commercial products tend to use? Any likely difference between DHEA and 7-keto?
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:20 PM   #2
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Default Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Ah, are we by any chance entering the di-dehydroepiandrosterone arena of debate?

If so, my observations and thoughts are:
- It is a unisex product
- The women’s version smells very good. Like baby powder, but sexy smelling baby powder.
- The instructions state to use no more than 2 sprays a day and at least every other day.
- I have never tested it by itself.

Furthermore, copied from:
Human Pheromones:
"Integrating Neuroendocrinology and Ethology"


*JVK Resources, Inc. Las Vegas, Nevada, USA.
Ludwig-Boltzmann-Institute for Urban Ethology, University of Vienna, Vienna, Austria.

by James V. Kohl, Michaela Atzmueller, Bernard Fink & Karl Grammer
http://www.nel.edu/22_5/NEL220501R01_Review.htm

Pheromones can be divided into at least two classes, according to the physiological effects they cause in the recipient: "signal" and "primer" pheromones. Signal pheromones cause short-term changes, such as the release of neurotransmitters that can directly modify the recipient's behavior. For example, Moss and Dudley suggest that a fraction of the GnRH molecule functions directly as a neurotransmitter in rats to elicit a behavioral effect (i.e., lordosis). This behavioral effect is characteristic of a "signal" pheromone, which activates a response.
Primer pheromones evoke long lasting changes in the body by influencing the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, which allows both for organizational and activational effects of primer pheromones. Primer pheromones are believed to exert their affect by altering the hypothalamic secretion of GnRH. Hypothalamic GnRH triggers the secretion of gonadotrophic hormones from the pituitary. The gonadotropins follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), and LH affect gonadal hormone secretion. In females, FSH stimulates follicle maturation in the ovaries and the secretion of estrogens; LH stimulates the ovarian theca cells to produce androgens, which diffuse to the granulosa cells of the ovarian follicle, where they are converted to estrogens, and LH also stimulates the growth of the corpus luteum and secretion of progesterone. In males, FSH stimulates spermatogenesis and probably affects T production and secretion by acting indirectly on an asyetunidentified Sertoli cell protein. In males, the LH/FSH ratio controls T production by Leydig cells in the testes. Sex steroid hormones like T and E alter neurotransmission by influencing synaptogenesis, synaptolysis, and apoptosis during development.


IF all this is correct, then I would be tempted to classify di-dehydroepiandrosterone as a primer pheromone and not a signal pheromone. That would explain why they tell you to use it at least every other day.
Cutler’s A10:13 btw comes with the same “no less than every other day” instructions and warns that it might take 6 to 8 weeks to see results.

Michael help! Before I make a fool of myself here with all my wild theories!

Regarding 7-Keto DHEA, according to LEF.org
7-Keto DHEA, a natural metabolite of DHEA, has been shown to safely increase thermogenesis and improving fat loss benefits of diet and exercise three-fold.59 Studies suggests that 7-keto does not convert to testosterone or estradiol, as can DHEA. However, no research to date has evaluated 7-keto's effect on hormonally dependent conditions such as prostate cancer.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:30 PM   #3
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Default Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelie
Ah, are we by any chance entering the di-dehydroepiandrosterone arena of debate?
Oh, you mean the area of debate based on a "study" about a molecule posted only to a student's account at University of Chicago (so it'd look like a legit U of C study), a student's account which is now deleted due to fraud? The one that used APC's chart with their own name put on it with Photoshop as results? The patented molecule that doesn't exist in either the granted or submitted patents database?

You do realize that Pherlure is a more extreme and transparent scam than most, and this molecule probably as stated isn't even used, correct?

Does that help?

If people are getting results, it's probably from another molecule. Probably just normal DHEA, as that's certainly the most affordable "pheromone" there is (besides placebo).

I am surprised Kohl even addressed it as if it was legitimate. You'd think he would've contacted U of C first. Martha McClintock's territory.

A primer pheromone that takes 6-8 weeks would be useless, if it's priming your target, not you. (unless you share a jail cell, who are you around constantly for 6-8 weeks?)

Now, if it's affecting you, that's different. Of course we're involved in complex behavioral loops with others, so everything that has a positive impact on us, ultimately has a positive impact on others through us.

I don't think the Athena formula would take 6-8 weeks to create effects. The formula is far too complex for that to be true; it certainly contains a mix of both signal and primer pheromones.

I think they put that on there because it may take the user 6-8 weeks to SEE effects, which would be normal for any moderate pheromone product.

A314 works right away, but most people don't have the skill or modesty necessary to honestly differentiate between what is them and what is the pheromone. Seems to take at least a month for the users own perception to develop. No wonder it's loved more by long term pheromone users.

Last edited by MHarris; January 27th, 2006 at 03:44 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Well thank you for setting me straight!

Yes, I am very aware of the despicable marketing strategies. I was not aware, however, of the total uselessness of this particular molecule.

Smells good, but Estee Lauder's Intuition smells better!
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

I am surprised Kohl even addressed it as if it was legitimate.

Nope he shot it down. Vehemently!

It was just me, trying to draw some conclusions from his more theoretical writings. Trying to figure out this thing about 2 different types of pheromones.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:56 PM   #6
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Default Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelie
Well thank you for setting me straight!

Yes, I am very aware of the despicable marketing strategies. I was not aware, however, of the total uselessness of this particular molecule.

Smells good, but Estee Lauder's Intuition smells better!
Fraud is not marketing. They're not marketing. Let's get that clear. Marketers don't put up fake studies on student's accounts, then get press written about them. Fraud is fraud. It's one of the 5 most basic crimes, a form of theft.

Because they've even defrauded the press, they'll likely end up in jail. That's what happens when you make the wrong people with the right contacts accessories to a crime, and make them look like fools.

Now, I'm not saying the molecule is useless, just that they made it up and that it's probably not used.

They may be using plain DHEA, which is not, itself, completely useless.

Last edited by MHarris; January 4th, 2006 at 10:04 PM.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 10:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelie
I am surprised Kohl even addressed it as if it was legitimate.

Nope he shot it down. Vehemently!

It was just me, trying to draw some conclusions from his more theoretical writings. Trying to figure out this thing about 2 different types of pheromones.
As far as the marketers of di-dhea goes, he's right on the money. If someone lies about 9 out of 10 things, what's to make you think anything is true?

As far as DHEA itself goes...

I know he's no fan of DHEA, but it doesn't mean that DHEA doesn't communicate something.

While not all pheromones smell human, almost every one I've smelled that does smell human, does communicate *something*. It might not be sex sifferentiated communication, but it doesn't need to be. Not every conversation is about sex (directly, anyway).

Anyway, DHEA does smell human, very human, almost like rone. I'd say it's likely to communicate *something*. If nothing else, it could be used in perfumery as a distinctly human note.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 10:07 PM   #8
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Question Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

So I suppose we have cholesterol, pregnenolone, DHEA, androstenedione and testosterone.

Androstenedione (now banned in the US, I understand) might have been used at one time in some well thought-of products and is rumored to have some positive action. I once saw a post by somebody who might be on this board about his experiences with using (I think an injected oil form of) steroid as pheromone. The effects seemed to be an assertive masculinity without the negative effects of none. I guess it is not going to be in any commercial product any time soon though!

Are there subtle differences between what is communicated by -stenedione and testosterone, I wonder?

DHEA might do something useful.

Are cholesterol and pregnenolone likely to be active as pheromones in themselves? Can they provide the right feedstock for c-form bacteria to produce mones , or is it only from DHEA onwards that interesting results can be obtained?
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Old January 4th, 2006, 10:11 PM   #9
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Post Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHarris
As far as the marketers of di-dhea goes, he's right on the money. If someone lies about 9 out of 10 things, what's to make you think anything is true?

As far as DHEA itself goes...

I know he's no fan of DHEA, but it doesn't mean that DHEA doesn't communicate something.

While not all pheromones smell human, almost every one I've smelled that does smell human, does communicate *something*. It might not be sex sifferentiated communication, but it doesn't need to be. Not every conversation is about sex (directly, anyway).

Anyway, DHEA does smell human, very human, almost like rone. I'd say it's likely to communicate *something*. If nothing else, it could be used in perfumery as a distinctly human note.
Might one need to continue to use DHEA to to benefit from the impact on corneyform (sp?) bacteria colony? [Thinking maybe the colony reduces in size or changes population makeup when you stop feeding them and takes a while to grow back? Dunno, outside my field]
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Old January 6th, 2006, 03:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: DHEA, 7-keto DHEA

Quote:
Originally Posted by PheroQuirk
So I suppose we have cholesterol, pregnenolone, DHEA, androstenedione and testosterone.
Cholesterol is where it all begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PheroQuirk
Androstenedione (now banned in the US, I understand) might have been used at one time in some well thought-of products and is rumored to have some positive action. I once saw a post by somebody who might be on this board about his experiences with using (I think an injected oil form of) steroid as pheromone. The effects seemed to be an assertive masculinity without the negative effects of none. I guess it is not going to be in any commercial product any time soon though!
Was? It's still used in some products that have appeared over the last year or so from some other manufacturers.

An important warning to US customers who buy this directly or indirectly within another product:

It's now DEA class III in the US, because it promotes muscle growth.

First came this in 2004:
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/news/2004/hhs_031104.html

Then this:
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fe...005/fr1216.htm
http://www.dea.gov/programs/forensic...05/mg0505.html

It may be wrong to have scheduled this, but the punishments are even worse.

Some companies run afoul of the law, refusing to understand or admit to the reprecussions for both them AND their US customers for breaking the DEA chain of custody (each purchasers must be licensed by the DEA to carry).

It's like buying cocaine - you both get into trouble. Mere possession of androstenedione in any quantity, and any form, submits you to imprisonment and federal forfeiture laws. They can seize, retain or sell your property. And you get it all without full legal process, because when it comes to scheduled substances in the US, you don't have constitutional rights. They're overriden for this kind of offense.

Again, it may be a shame that some such chemicals have been scheduled, but please be sane if you're in the US. Be careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PheroQuirk
Are there subtle differences between what is communicated by -stenedione and testosterone, I wonder?

DHEA might do something useful.

Are cholesterol and pregnenolone likely to be active as pheromones in themselves? Can they provide the right feedstock for c-form bacteria to produce mones, or is it only from DHEA onwards that interesting results can be obtained?
Preg and DHEA act as good feedstock in an organics lab, and likely on your skin, too.

The cholesterol backbone itself, I don't think would as useful. Not on the skin. In the body, definitely. Eat your red meat and take zinc every night, and you'll see some definite changes in your hormone and pheromone output.
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